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"If you haven't got trust, who're you supposed to believe in?"
In a somewhat selfish and shallow way, I'm mad at the Life on Mars fandom for not having more Annie/Sam fic.
And maybe not even the really shippery stuff (though I would NOT say no), but just some more general exploration of the characters and plot as seen during the show and after episode 2x08 - I would REALLY like to read some of that.
Now granted, I've only actually been looking through this fandom for about a week, so obviously I haven't found everything, and there's always the case to be made to "stop whinging and write it yourself" but I'm just kind of discouraged that in most of the fic that even involves Annie, she suddenly becomes an evil in-league-with-the-TestCardGirl person, forcing Sam into the waiting arms of Gene, or you know Sam doesn't actually like her (all evidence in almost EVERY episode to the contrary) it's just a ruse, or whatever, for his throbbing desire for Gene bloody Hunt.
So yeah, this is getting ranty, but I think I've just got to lay it on the line that one of my problems with a lot of slash (other than my obvious canon!obsession reason) is that it comes about at the expense of the female characters. Now OBVIOUSLY this is NOT the case for all slash - I have in fact read and enjoyed the odd slashy fic (![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
xtinethepirate, you can stop looking so shocked) and I know there's a lot of slash fic I haven't read that doesn't abuse female characterization at all - but it's still scarily prevalent. WHY does Annie have to be evil, or an idiot, or simply not there for this fic to come about? And why is it not just Annie in Life on Mars, but so many other characters in other shows as well. And in a media that is still largely dominated by male characters (how many shows and movies can you think of that really only have one female lead?) isn't it just a bloody waste to throw out the few women we do have?
I know I'm not the only person to notice this, right? And again, this isn't my attack on slash itself, but just in this off-handed shoving aside or twisting of these characters in a form of fic that's, let's face it, I'm guessing 98% written by women.
Anyway, I do apologize if I've offended - obviously this is just my opinion - but I wanted to say it. Now, I think I'll go dream up some fic where Annie is sweet and kickass and opinionated, and Sam is just crazy about her, in his confused sort of way. Because I love Annie. And Sam.
And even Gene Hunt.
And maybe not even the really shippery stuff (though I would NOT say no), but just some more general exploration of the characters and plot as seen during the show and after episode 2x08 - I would REALLY like to read some of that.
Now granted, I've only actually been looking through this fandom for about a week, so obviously I haven't found everything, and there's always the case to be made to "stop whinging and write it yourself" but I'm just kind of discouraged that in most of the fic that even involves Annie, she suddenly becomes an evil in-league-with-the-TestCardGirl person, forcing Sam into the waiting arms of Gene, or you know Sam doesn't actually like her (all evidence in almost EVERY episode to the contrary) it's just a ruse, or whatever, for his throbbing desire for Gene bloody Hunt.
So yeah, this is getting ranty, but I think I've just got to lay it on the line that one of my problems with a lot of slash (other than my obvious canon!obsession reason) is that it comes about at the expense of the female characters. Now OBVIOUSLY this is NOT the case for all slash - I have in fact read and enjoyed the odd slashy fic (
xtinethepirate, you can stop looking so shocked) and I know there's a lot of slash fic I haven't read that doesn't abuse female characterization at all - but it's still scarily prevalent. WHY does Annie have to be evil, or an idiot, or simply not there for this fic to come about? And why is it not just Annie in Life on Mars, but so many other characters in other shows as well. And in a media that is still largely dominated by male characters (how many shows and movies can you think of that really only have one female lead?) isn't it just a bloody waste to throw out the few women we do have? I know I'm not the only person to notice this, right? And again, this isn't my attack on slash itself, but just in this off-handed shoving aside or twisting of these characters in a form of fic that's, let's face it, I'm guessing 98% written by women.
Anyway, I do apologize if I've offended - obviously this is just my opinion - but I wanted to say it. Now, I think I'll go dream up some fic where Annie is sweet and kickass and opinionated, and Sam is just crazy about her, in his confused sort of way. Because I love Annie. And Sam.
And even Gene Hunt.
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In those cases, I do not see a problem in marginalizing said character, since she plays at best a supporting role (and an irritating one, haha) in canon itself. For instance, in Revenge of the Sith, Padme is all but useless except as a baby machine. She weeps and frets quite a bit, but she is not the ass-kicking senator of Attack of the Clones. Therefore, a fic that portrays Padme as such likely wouldn't bother me toooooooo much... but it would depend on the story. If the author just added her in there for no better reason than to take out her negative emotions on the character then, well, the fic could use some editing.
If Padme barring Obi-Wan and Anakin's relationship is an intrinsic part of the story, I may be more lenient with my judgement there. Again, it would depend on how she is written however. Canonically speaking, Padme may be emotional, but she's not a shrieking harpy or shrew. *shrugs* If you're going to make a character a bitch, do it in a believable way, or just don't include it at all. I mean, FCOL, what's the point of interrupting a perfectly good slash fic of sexay boisecks to have a superfluous woman in there, ammirite?? :D
Of course, even having not seen Life on Mars, I can say that I would more likely fall into the Sam/Gene category. *laughs* Just because we slashers think that way. But I think you can write slash without undermining the female characters. As I've discussed this at length with many fellow slashers when I was in the SW fandom, A LOT of writers who are committed to being GOOD writers feel the same way.
So you shouldn't be too fearful of pissing off the slash contingent. We think the same thing much of the time.
ALSO. WHAT SLASH FICS HAVE YOU READ? *big eyes* WHEN?!
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Like you said, I have full confidence that there is well-written, well-realized slash fic out there that either makes good use of the female characters in its fandom, or at least doesn't mess around with their characterization for its own ends. And I'm also glad to know that there is discussion about this within the slash community.
And I guess I can be a little understanding of it in something like SW, where the problem really lies in the original source material. If you wanted to write a fic where Padme (and her, yes, many annoying qualities) simply wasn't there, I really couldn't blame you. Though frankly, I found Annakin even MORE annoying than her in the new series. ;) But if someone started messing around with Princess Leia - making her LESS than she is - gawd, I would start kicking doors down. ;)
I mean, FCOL, what's the point of interrupting a perfectly good slash fic of sexay boisecks to have a superfluous woman in there, ammirite?? :D
*sceptical eyebrow raise*
And you know, I really wouldn't have a problem if YOU slashed Gene and Sam
whenif you ever see the show, but that's because I trust you're not going to abuse the other characters "getting in their way". Because obviously, it can be done. Again, my problem isn't really in the slash itself, just in the way it's so often brought about.Anyway, thanks again dahlink, for giving me your side of this. Again, I'm happy that it's a problem not being ignored in the community. Maybe we can talk more at length later today! (*has no plans to kidnap you and force you into a LoM watching party*) *g*
ALSO. WHAT SLASH FICS HAVE YOU READ? *big eyes* WHEN?!
Ha! What about the Sir Gawain fic I rec'd you? True, I was a LEETLE put off by the graphic sexing by the end, but I still believed it and enjoyed the story - but it was really well written. And there's an awesome AU crossover with Jim from The Office/Ted from How I met your Mother fic, that I know I rec'd here and can't for the life of me find, but it was hilarious! And surprisingly well thought-out. And then there's the odd Greek myth fic, but that stuff's pretty much canonical anyway. ;)
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With the exception of Torchwood. I haven't found a lot of it happening with Torchwood fic, mainly because everyone seems to enjoy writing Jack screwing everyone in sight. (IMHO)
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Okay, that's pretty much the sum of my TW fandom knowledge. :D
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*sends Gwen some love*
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And I really don't know anything about the TW fandom (I'll watch it occasionally for Gwen), but I guess I can see that being so. The pairings in that show are pretty loose and free-flowing, but of course, that's written in the show itself. ;)
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To be honest, I've never really thought about it before. I'm not that drawn to slash, but I think I've always been lucky enough to ship pairings that had generated enough fic for it not to be an issue.
Though I've heard of similar issues occurring in SPN via my flist - where women are pushed aside for the sake of Sam/Dean. Which has always made me want to stay the hell away from the fandom.
It's weird, though, isn't it? I feel like if you want to tap into the vibe between Gene and Sam, you don't really NEED to turn Annie evil. I'm sure there's a theory on this somewhere. Someone smarter than me should probably explain it, though. :D
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Yeah usually, I'm not that bothered because I have little to no interest in slash, and am just happy to let everyone do their own thing. But, like you said, in something like Firefly or Doctor Who or whatever, finding fic for my OTP has never really been a problem.
Though I've heard of similar issues occurring in SPN via my flist - where women are pushed aside for the sake of Sam/Dean. Which has always made me want to stay the hell away from the fandom.
Actually, hearing that kind of surprises me, because there aren't really any women on the show in the first place. Granted, there are people like Ellen and Jo, but I can't see them as "obstacles" as such, that need to be steamrolled. *sigh* But again, in something like that, I'll watch the show, but really have no interest in the fandom. But I want to like the LoM fandom.
I feel like if you want to tap into the vibe between Gene and Sam, you don't really NEED to turn Annie evil. I'm sure there's a theory on this somewhere.
Absolutely. And again, this is where I don't have a problem with the slash, but with the execution. You wanna write Sam and Gene getting it on? Fine, go to. But if you need to tear Annie down first to make your pairing, I don't know - more legitimized or something - that's when I get cranky.
You know, it's really the same thing I'd sometimes encounter in the Buffy fandom a long (LONG) time ago: Riley!haters would write him as evil, and make him rape Buffy or something equally horrible, so she could run back to Angel. You don't like the character, I get it. But when is that ever necessary?
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*jumps into your conversation with a smile* Hallo! Speaking as a member of that fandom, I thought I'd interject my two cents. I've found that the SPN fandom is really Sam/Dean centric since they are the only two main characters in the show --- all the women are little more than tertiary characters, because the plot is meant to follow the brothers on their demon-hunting trek across the country.
There have been some female characters -- Jo, Ellen, Ruby, and Bela, for example -- but they tend to be marginalized by the creator/scriptwriters themselves. And (I find) they fall into two categories: one-shot characters who are awesome, or longer-term Mary Sues. In the episodes that do feature the girls, it happens in one of two ways: either the women barely feature on the episode (generally with the one-shot women), or the woman takes over the role of one of the boys in the episode, so it's still kind of a two-man show (the Mary Sues do this).
Fandom gets upset about the latter, because we are protective of the brotherly love (be it slashy or otherwise), and having one boy serve little more purpose than a potted plant in the corner, while "look at me, I'm a hardass" Mary Sue takes centre stage is... irksome. The female characters started to be introduced in Season 2, so having one brother displaced in favour of a female character is tricky, especially since there is a pretty sharp fandom divide between the Sam contingent and the Dean girls. When Sam is knocked out of the episode so Dean and Jo, for example, can solve a case, Eric Kripke gets a LOT of upset fans, hahaha. I think that's way no female character has lasted more than one season so far.
Maybe I've been fortunate enough to not see it in the fics I have read, but I find that women aren't demonized (unless they're really demons) or blatantly shoved out of the way to make the fic work... they just... aren't really an issue. Which, for SPN, is fairly canon-tight.
RPS is a different factor, of course. I have seen some people make Sandy (Jared's ex-fiance) into an awful person to enable Jared/Jensen fic. That I completely disagree with. But really, the REAL reason to stay out of the fandom is the wank. There's a lot. *laughs* But that's really on the message boards, not the fiction communities.
Erm.. *toes floor* Sorry to have talked your ear off there, hahah. ♥
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And why is it not just Annie in Life on Mars, but so many other characters in other shows as well. And in a media that is still largely dominated by male characters (how many shows and movies can you think of that really only have one female lead?) isn't it just a bloody waste to throw out the few women we do have?
YES.
I will just say this. Jack/Ianto. And the opinion that slash writers in Torchwood fandom often express towards Gwen. It's disturbing. It actually kind of scares me, the hate and bile that's thrown at Gwen. [And, you know, I don't even know if it's contained just within slash, but since Jack/Ianto is so insanely prevalent it's pretty much what I associate the Gwen-hate with. God forbid Jack express any interest in her! He's not bi/omnisexual at all, oh no, he just wants Ianto!]/ God forgive her for being a real woman and the only person on that show with fairly consistantly good characterization (it is TW) and actual emotional depth and awesomness. There are comms solely built to tear her down. It boggles my mind. I had to make a whole lurve comm for her, it got to me so much. Blerg.
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I don't mind slash in the least, but there are just sometimes where I don't quite know how to reconcile fannishness with the actual characters, and it's really hard for me to do with Sam/Gene.
Absolutely, though that's more my canon side coming through. I'd have a REALLY hard time believing the characters of Gene and Sam as written in the show, would ever have more than a tense (if strong) respect for one another. But in most fandoms, I would just shrug at the slash. Here, it's pretty much everything. And it seems wholly unfair that backlash would carry over into A2A - I mean the show even ACKNOWLEDGED Sam and Gene's connection and the impact Sam's loss made on Gene. But I guess the new relationship being made between Gene and Alex have them all in a tizzy. *sigh*
I will just say this. Jack/Ianto. And the opinion that slash writers in Torchwood fandom often express towards Gwen. It's disturbing. It actually kind of scares me, the hate and bile that's thrown at Gwen.
You know, that almost surprises me, because Jack/Ianto is canonical, and the show GIVES us the example of them being together, and having Gwen still being consistently awesome. And Jack and Ianto being together and still have Jack flirting with women because *gasp* that's who he is! But, I guess, you know... people. *double sighs*
It's just really not making sense to me, this trend. Why would someone ever think that the best way to pay homage to a favourite character is to find another, and tear them into shreds?
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WHY does Annie have to be evil, or an idiot, or simply not there for this fic to come about? And why is it not just Annie in Life on Mars, but so many other characters in other shows as well. And in a media that is still largely dominated by male characters (how many shows and movies can you think of that really only have one female lead?) isn't it just a bloody waste to throw out the few women we do have?
Agreed 100%! Female characters with depth are so RARE (and femslash is even RARER) and people just TOSS THEM ASIDE.
I've read some good slash fic as well, but they never maligned an opposing character.
p.s. I NEVER got the Sam/Gene connection. AT ALL. Sometimes I see it, but fandom caught me off-guard with that pairing.
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I find the people who dismiss Annie--or, even more frequently, Alex--frustrating. So, here I am, lighting a candle.